I'm involved in what is probably a lifelong process of debunking Schenkerian analysis, at least as it has been promulgated.
Anyone have any tips?
Anyone have any tips?
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Re: Schenkerian Analysis
Mon, December 8, 2003 - 12:41 PMwhat kinds of tips?
the process of debunking? specific to schenkerian analysi? as applied to semitiocs? as semtiocs apply? existing research? -
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Re: Schenkerian Analysis
Mon, December 8, 2003 - 4:18 PMSchenkerian analysis, at least as explained, is much infected with ontological circularity. I take issue with this because musical academia makes an ever stronger point of excluding core criticism of Schenker literature, if not overtly expelling those who are critical. I'm a music theorist, not a semiotician, so I was hoping for some advice on putting a dent in the problem via positions of intellectual authority outside of actual music departments. -
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Re: Schenkerian Analysis
Mon, December 8, 2003 - 8:48 PMhmmm. well i won't be of much help since i'm a "semiotic newbie" but perhaps Gecko or Staze can elaborate. meanwhile, i'll try to fake my way through a response in the interest of helping out...
i do know that in semiotics there are roughly two fields, those concerned with linguistics and those concerned with the nature of signs and sign computation.
between those, there is some introduction and argument of the ontology of semtiocs. peirce had published some categories of signs that start with a minimum of three and go up from there. others have elaborated adding more ontology / categoires - esp. the linguistics crowd. i think the strongest arguements i have heard are that three are all you need and that everything can be represented using three categories. peirce himself makes this argument so perhaps you can draw from it. these three are firstness, secondness and thirdness.
umberto eco and john sowa are two names already mentioned here that come to mind that may be of help. also, mentioned are sarbo and farkas who deal with peircean ontologies and language.
also, the sematic web is an exercise in ontology madness so perhaps there is something to glen from that effort and or Tim Berners-Lee
anwyay, perhaps the others will chime in...
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Re: Schenkerian Analysis
Wed, December 10, 2003 - 10:49 AMI have no formal music background, so I can't specifically address the Schenker viewpoint (although I'd like to learn more). However, circularity is fact of life in any ontological or logical system (the dictionary on your desk is a prominent example of this) -- with a few caveats. Circularity can be "dealt with" by producing strictly hierarchical ontologies. Often times in practice, the highest levels of abstraction become escape valves, perhaps better thought of as kludges, to enable everything to fit supposedly nice and tidy in a particular world view. Only toy problems, or those related to extremely narrow domains can cleanly use strict hierarchical onologies ("only" is a little strong, but to make a point...)
An example of this is the toy ontology "animal, vegetable, mineral". Sure, we can fit most anything into these categories nicely. However, try to describe an animal, vegetable, or mineral within its own ontological system and you'll come up empty handed.
One angle to consider is to leverage Godel incompleteness and see where that leads. Of course this could be seen as the "bah humbug" approach, since it leaves any logical system open to attack. However, it's a way of thinking that may help narrow the focus on the slippery slope components of Schenkerian analysis. You may discover additional dent material exploring this sort of path. -
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Re: Schenkerian Analysis
Wed, December 10, 2003 - 12:59 PMThe main problem with Schenkerian analysis is not that it is based on a set of assumptions, but that what 'proves' are the assumptions it begins with. When it fails to 'prove' its premises, the data are said to be defective in some way. If I want to, I can do a Schenkerian analysis of a Schoenberg piece consisting of tone rows in which I 'prove' that the piece is really an elaborate variant of the tune Three Blind Mice,
and I can probably pick any key in which to demonstrate such.
This is reductio ad absurdum, but Schenker, himself, threw out Stravinsky pieces that were clearly tonal because he found them too awkward to analyze with his own methods; the implication is that if Schenker can't analyze it, it isn't tonal. I have a real problem with that.
Another issue I have is with what is actually repesented in a schenkerian analysis. It's not clear whether the structures are supposed to be compositional or perceptual.
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Re: Schenkerian Analysis
Thu, December 11, 2003 - 11:58 AM> When it fails to 'prove' its premises, the data are said
> to be defective in some way.
Heh. Interesting approach to logic, that. When I develop a system of logic, the first thing I always do is make sure it can never be refuted!
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